Re: Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/18/06 05:10:41 PM |
Age 31, IL |
Right on Baumann! Loved your article, and totally agree with everything you said. I'm sick of these mega churches preaching the benefits of salvation, but neglecting the cross. They preach on topics that avoid debate and controversy, but everything Christ did brought about controversy, and most people hated him for it. It's unhealthy to preach prosperity when your preaching it by itself. What ever happened to the part that tells us to daily take up our cross if we want to be his followers. It's to bad that the general public think of these mega pastors as being the leaders of Gods Church because in many cases a lot of them will soon be hearing this phrase from the Lord "Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you" Obviously there are pastors of large churches who are preaching it right, but for the majority I have to agree with Ray on the fact that we are a shallow generation, and how could we be any thing other, when all we here about is what God can do for us. The body of Christ will grow once we wake up and begin to do what we as individuals were called to do. Once we station ourselves at our position, and are no longer swayed by silly doctrine we will unite and become the body that Christ intended us to be, and it will indeed be an absolute beautiful thing to see. The power of God has never left the Church, but in America it has been sacrificed by compromise, however, it is on it's way back in a greater measure than the Church has ever seen in this country. It's just to bad that we have come so far away from the truth to realize that something is missing. It doesn't take a genius to see that the Church of today is not like the early Church that we read about in the Bible. A little more persecution will bring about more anointing, and do the body of Christ a lot of good in the coming years. Thank you Ray for your insight, and your spirit inspired words.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/16/06 11:52:02 AM |
Age 42, VA |
I was quite pleased when I read this article. Many churches have developed a "bigger is better" mentality. However, it seems to me that numeric growth -- and the desire for it -- is not a negative, entirely. For example, Christ commanded us to make disciples. In Acts 2, the church grew by 3,000. Later, Luke describes "multitudes" coming to the Lord. In my thinking, the shift has been in emphases. That is, the contemporary church emphasizes growth. The New Testament, on the other hand, emphasizes proclamation. When the latter is executed in power, simplicity, and upon honest hearts, the former will result. Is this not a balanced (and biblical) approach?
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/13/06 09:28:37 PM |
Age 32, OK |
I always wondered why king David was punished for numbering the people,never understood why then last yr read article about pride,ambition,glory to self,and that scripture finally made sense.Exalting your position successes never works,exalting God and the Lord does.King Saul messed up by people pleasing not obeying God's commands to him.We don't wanna be fed something that tastes like self help worlds ways there is no spiritual meat in that. When you taste something filling and holy nothing else satisfies its temporary fix.Read about a spiritual evangalist early part healing minstries,Lord gave him a vision were they'd start messing up healing ministry and vision for hisself too fishing, and more fisherman kept trying come show him right way to fish.Much is given much is required want more gotta be trusted with obeying what he gives you to do.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/12/06 04:02:19 PM |
Age 42, LA |
What an encouragement to hear others struggling with the same issues as my family. The article "hit the nail on the head" and the writers of most of the feedback I read were in agreement. Our family would have already stopped going to church if not for the command of the Lord to participate in the fellowship. Our small town has only one church teaching the truth yet it could be labeled "frozen chosen" which is the opposite of the seeker-friendly church and just as unhealthy. I thank the Lord for BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) which my entire family attends. It is the only place we are being fed sound doctrine. My husband has decided that we may just sell our home and move where we find a healthy church in which to plant our family.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/12/06 03:17:32 PM |
Age 72, VA |
This is one of the most perceptive articles I have ever read! Right on!!! Our church has never gone for numbers, but for depth of commitment to the Lord. That is the way to grow - not necessarily the local church, but The Church, the Body of Christ as a whole, because the commited members will become effective witnesses, church planters, missionaries, etc.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/11/06 11:10:54 AM |
Age 45, IL |
Wow! Great post Ray! More folks need to realize what you have learned and get back to the basics.
The difficulty in all of this is that while we are trying to reach the lost, as our main focus, someone along the way has sold us on an idea that "We need a better tool to do the job".
A Phillips screwdriver will drive a screw into the wood just like a power drill with a crosshead tip. But has our impatient nature, microwave mentality, and we want it yesterday motto caused us our own demise?
So we look for ways to "re-invent" the wheel. I don't blame anyone in particular, it is just that man always looks for ways to improve on things. We want to take the "easy way" out to reach the masses. Everyone has desire to please the Lord and grow the kingdom, but are we?
And just because we see church attendance growing, everyone assumes that whatever we are doing must be the right thing.
God looks on the heart, man looks on the outward appearance, so its easy for man to get caught up in that "ends justifies the means mentality."
I remember a time when one of my boys was in wrestling and asked me about taking a hormone drug to help him get bigger and be stronger to compete. I asked him why he thought he needed it? His self-esteem was probably low at that time just starting out and he was a little bit afraid of the guys that he was going up against. He had put his faith in a drug to make him successful. Plus he desired to be powerful.(notice the flesh rising here) I talked with him about his attitude and competing, especially pointing out that in his competition if he used drugs to win then he himself wouldn't be worthy of the win, and he could never really claim success by using something that wasn't God given.
He would then put his faith and trust in an idol...the hormone drug, instead of his God given abilities. Well thank the good God in heaven that my son realized that winning by "cheating" is actually losing. He abandoned the thought and went on to win several matches. His team went onto place 4th in the state finals. Fourth doesn't seem to be that fantastic but for a New wrestler making the team and placing fourth in the state was quite an accomplishment for him.
Is there a lesson here for us? Why do we think that numbers is success? God is looking for "Quality" not quantity. There will be many that say "Lord, lord, and call on His name, but those people will not enter in and forever be separated from God. These are those that claimed to be Christians.
You are correct in your thinking, and I appreciate your article, it resounds truth.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/11/06 11:09:41 AM |
Age 45, IL |
Wow! Great post Ray! More folks need to realize what you have learned and get back to the basics.
The difficulty in all of this is that while we are trying to reach the lost, as our main focus, someone along the way has sold us on an idea that "We need a better tool to do the job".
A Phillips screwdriver will drive a screw into the wood just like a power drill with a crosshead tip. But has our impatient nature, microwave mentality, and we want it yesterday motto caused us our own demise?
So we look for ways to "re-invent" the wheel. I don't blame anyone in particular, it is just that man always looks for ways to improve on things. We want to take the "easy way" out to reach the masses. Everyone has desire to please the Lord and grow the kingdom, but are we?
And just because we see church attendance growing, everyone assumes that whatever we are doing must be the right thing.
God looks on the heart, man looks on the outward appearance, so its easy for man to get caught up in that "ends justifies the means mentality."
I remember a time when one of my boys was in wrestling and asked me about taking a hormone drug to help him get bigger and be stronger to compete. I asked him why he thought he needed it? His self-esteem was probably low at that time just starting out and he was a little bit afraid of the guys that he was going up against. He had put his faith in a drug to make him successful. Plus he desired to be powerful.(notice the flesh rising here) I talked with him about his attitude and competing, especially pointing out that in his competition if he used drugs to win then he himself wouldn't be worthy of the win, and he could never really claim success by using something that wasn't God given.
He would then put his faith and trust in an idol...the hormone drug, instead of his God given abilities. Well thank the good God in heaven that my son realized that winning by "cheating" is actually losing. He abandoned the thought and went on to win several matches. His team went onto place 4th in the state finals. Fourth doesn't seem to be that fantastic but for a New wrestler making the team and placing fourth in the state was quite an accomplishment for him.
Is there a lesson here for us? Why do we think that numbers is success? God is looking for "Quality" not quantity. There will be many that say "Lord, lord, and call on His name, but those people will not enter in and forever be separated from God. These are those that claimed to be Christians.
You are correct in your thinking, and I appreciate your article, it resounds truth.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/10/06 08:53:14 AM |
Age 68, FL |
I too am very concerned with what I see happening in our evangelical churches. To draw the crowds, it is feed, entertain, and make them feel good. There are some good sermons, but I rarely hear ones on "holy living", living seperate lives. I sense a shallow Christianity in these "growth is the measure" churches. As an example: One of our more mature Christian ladies attempted to start a Bible study group. She approached some of the younger, newer members and did not get a favorable response. She was told: "I am a mature Christian, I don't need to attend Bible study."
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Re: Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/10/06 08:46:05 AM |
Age 45, WI |
I find it surprizing that so many belivers can have the same thoughts about the "church" that we have had fed to us and still find it so hard to find the true church that God wanted His children to experience. The search goes on for all who would dare to listen to the direction of the Holy Spirit for thier lives. may you be Blessed in your search.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/09/06 11:39:22 PM |
Age 50, CA |
Ray,
you describe your motivation for Church growth as wanting to do more for God and multiply your efforts. I don't doubt that is the case, especially since you decribe the epiphany you had in realizing how shallow this emphasis is. The truth is that most of this Church growth mania is motivated by greed and desire for power and influence. Mega churches produce more revenue, larger staffs, and more fools blindly drinking from the polluted well.
I - a Christian non-participant in organized religion, applaud your re-directed efforts and aspiration towards teaching and discipling.
Best Regards,
Cameron De Smidt
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Re: Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/09/06 10:00:07 PM |
Age 52, CA |
Thank you Mr. Smith, for your insight and comments. I read the original article and saw flashes of great insight into some problems existing in selected contemporary churches, maybe even some in the one I attend and volunteer in. But what struck me most in the original article, and that you specifically addressed, were the points and feelings that truly sounded more like bad attitude and sour grapes. Growing a church can not in itself be bad, provided the leadership and messages are properly grounded in faith, Jesus Christ, and biblical preaching. How that message is delivered, using contemporary music, multimedia, and seamless transitions also can not be innately bad, unless the leaders, pastor, and volunteers are not amply motivated by the Holy Spirit. Any statement insinuating that they are bad starts to sound a bit more like sour grapes and longing for the days of stand up sit down, business suit churches of the past. The church members of that generation are fading as their generation passes on. Christian worship is evolving, and people are coming back, precisely because the see, hear, and participate in the service differently than our parents and grandparents.
Each and every pointed statement I have read on this entire article response chain appears to have its roots in a specific person or church leadership group that caused the writer to recoil from that location. Thats the point, recoil from that location, not from the growing church, the multimedia church, or the modern church. Its the human beings in some of these churches that have lost their calling and their spiritual motivation. Its not the medium.
Thank you for seeing through many of the responses, and seeing the weakness of the principal article.
Craig McKenzie-Crossroads Church Ridgecrest CA TechArts Ministry Leader (volunteer)
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Re: Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/09/06 02:59:10 PM |
Age 48, SA |
I remember reading Norman Grubb's book about Rees Howells, 'The Intercessor' and certainly many prayers have been offered on bended knees before the Father to break the dam of man-centered Christianity, which has gained popularity. Jesus has always been about quality, and it GREAT that the Lord has worked this miracle in your heart.
Now we see a crack in the dam of false teaching in the body and it is time to really concentrate our prayers to bring the kingdom of man made programmes down and let the water of blessing return to the body of Christ.
Hallelujah.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/09/06 12:16:45 PM |
Age 38, MO |
For many years Christian leadership has moved away from our suffiency in Christ and into something like our Efficiency in Christ. A boardroom mentality that has sees the church as nothing more than a competitor for the attentions of the world. Someone's work in this area that needs to be looked at is John Van Gelderen of Preach the Word Ministries. John is an evangelist whom when addressing the experience of most believers asks the question "Why am I often defeated surprised by victory when God's Word promises the believer a victorious life surprised by defeat." Most believers while claiming faith deny it by not daily depending upon Spirit of God. It is age old - self-dependency vs God dependency.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/09/06 08:48:29 AM |
Age 44, ON |
Thank you- I myself got off that church growth treadmill, and stopped going to the 'leadership gym' back in the 90's. I would suggest that the evangelical church has lost confidence in the power of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. We have lost sight of His Sovereignty and Providential care.
I suspect when we begin to see the Word back on church signs, instead of slogans and reader's digest spirituality, we will know that God's people are growing in dependence on Him.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/09/06 08:23:56 AM |
Age 42, IL |
Good job Ray. I see how you and Kristi are allowing God to grow you both and I think it is awesome. It is comforting to a church body when they see their leadership willing to be teachable by God and then change accordingly.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/09/06 08:04:40 AM |
Age 60, TX |
Amen... Now if more pastors would only follow we might get free from this and get back to preaching the gospel to a lost world..
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Re: Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/09/06 07:27:36 AM |
Age 41, LA |
I have taught this verse in this context; Jesus says "on this rock will build the church", and His instruction to us (Matt. 28:19) is "go and make disciples". If we take care of the individual, He will take care of the body.
I have visited churches in other cities (my secular job) that could use a good dose of evangelism training, but I have seen just as many who could use a good dose of Matt. 28:20; "observe (obey) everything I have taught you." If we are sharing and spreading the gospel AND discipling the new believers, then and only then will the church growth be real and relavent. Yes, I think we need to be prepared and organized to reach into the world and bring the lost into the fold by any Bibilcal means neccessary (1 Cor. 9:22)But making disciples is the mission, not attendance.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/09/06 04:11:32 AM |
Age 46, CA |
Is there a legitimate role for the church in meeting practical needs? Without question. Indeed, if the church were doing a better job of meeting practical needs, mayors would be able to tell governors (and governors tell the federal government), "We don't need your wasteful programs -- our churches are feeding the hungry, housing the homeless and finding jobs for those who want to work." Of course, churches need to work together to make that happen, which is a whole other topic...
Should preaching and teaching focus on temporal needs to the detriment of the spiritual? Absolutely not. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness" is not just a command for 'the masses' -- it is for everyone. We are hearing far too little about righteousness these days -- what it looks like, what it sounds like, and especially what it costs.
There is a place for applied truth, and there is a place for absolute truth. People shy away from absolute truth, but that does not absolve the teacher or the preacher of responsibility to present it, any more than it would be ok for a parent to feed a child nothing but dessert because the child doesn't like vegetables.
Preachers and worship leaders have had a tendency to cast the congregation in the role of 'audience', and this has been done with the congregants' tacit approval.
There is a long-standing tendency of both to rely on what worked before; to pre-package and 'script' the very life out of the service. Those who come expecting to be part of something fresh and alive instead have to endure 25 iterations of "Have Thine Own Way, Lord" followed by "part 26 of my 52-part series on 'Setting Aside Man's Programs'." Every portion of the 'service' is tightly scripted, every 'segment' merges seamlessly into the next so that there is no 'dead air'; in other words, no opportunity for someone to speak or (Heaven Forbid!) sing something that isn't on the program. Week in and week out, everything that happens is as predictable as the fate of an egg on it's way to the floor, with a disturbing similarity of outcome that everyone tries very hard not to notice.
Is it really so surprising that belief, not only in 'disputed topics' such as the Spiritual Gifts but in the very fundamentals of the Faith is in decline? Who is going to be raised from the dead in a dead church? Why should altar calls be answered when people are glued to their seats, either with inertia or with fear of saying or doing 'something wrong'?
In the midst of all the name-changing that is going on, more than a few churches ought to be calling themselves the "Church of Laodicea", and more than a few ought to write 'Ichabod' over the door and be done with it.
The amazing thing is that the Spirit of God instructed John to write nearly 2,000 years ago of the things we see happening today. I have been expecting these things for years, yet I am taken aback by the speed with which Bible prophecy is being fulfilled. Even so, Come, Lord Jesus!
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/08/06 10:38:22 PM |
Age 69, TX |
Great article.I recently moved to this state and left a church where a pastor took a small church in financial trouble and retired 15 years later. The small church prayed and paid off a great debt and when he retired it had grown from 175 to over 3000 with a growth rate of over 300 a year.It included a strong Biblical disciple program with sermons on the Blood,repentance,etc.A new pastor arrived and quite suddenly everything changed.Having recently visited Willow Creek I saw the simelarity.All black curtains overnight,drums and guitars,a five or six member "praise team" all dressed in black singing only '"praise songs",period.The old paster required a mixture of old and new,which everyone understood.The attendance now is about 1000 less with a small increase.Anyone who asked for a few traditional songs and a return of the choir,were told they could leave.No more new Christian classes.All post modern,Willow Creek "model",etc.,even with an outright diaster visable to all. The "Post Moderns" believe all the church growth books in an attempt to be part of a contemperary movement.Even turning their back an obvious Holy Spirit movement of over 10% growth a year,with a hugh building program required to barely hold the new Sunday School rooms and new sanctury needs.I guess for them to be part of the"New Wave",it is OK to bypass the Holy Spirit and even see an end of a Spirit led growth in favor of a hot new trend. Sad!
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Re: Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/08/06 05:05:48 PM |
Age 39, CA |
The problem is not preaching to help people's needs. The problem is the true motive for seeking God. Do they wish to become spiritually mature to solve all of their problems or to die to themselves and further the Kingdom of God on earth, and let God provide for their needs?
Maybe they want God to solve their needs and then they'll die to themselves and promote the Gospel.
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