Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 08:58:22 PM |
Age 59, KS |
This is a very enlightening article. I saw this xxxchurch.com site advertised on a youth pastors webpage and thought it surely wasn't really xxx, but from the information provided in this article, I was right to doubt what it was really doing. I am sad to think so many church pastors and people are being tricked into thinking this is even close to an evangelism tool. I certainly don't watch that type of stuff today at home and never want to ever see it in my church. May God bless those who wish to tell the truth about these type of things going on in our churches. God is truth. AMEN
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 08:38:16 PM |
Age 41, NM |
A Few Thoughts:
1) I once thought Rob Bell had some wothrwhile stuff. I bought several of his Nooma videos. Then I watched them. No repentence. No turning from sin. Just the same soft-pedal gospel that makes people feel good about themselves the way they are and gives them a false sense of eternal security, which prabably makes them more damned.
2) This "Porn-Sunday" stuff is so over the top, I can hardly believe it. I don't understand how we can take a "worship Sevice" in which we ought to "lift up Jesus" and instead focus on porn. It seems these men from xxxchurch find there identity in their past activity rather than in Jesus. Maybe I'm wrong.
3) I once tried to read the book entitled "Every Man's Battle". I couldn't finish it. The stories and accounts were so vivid that rather helping me become pure, my mind was filled with sexual images, thoughts and imaginations. I had to repent, get rid of the book, and get back to God's idea...Whatever is pure, lovely, noble, and of good report...think on these things. God's way works. Man's way doesn't.
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 04:53:57 PM |
Age 33, IL |
Ken, I think it is imperative that you respond to the numerous requests here to identify your actual, Biblical concerns with Rob Bell, Mars Hill, and XXXchurch. From the first word, your bias is established, yet you present no lucid arguments in support.
Also, even if you disagree with the methodology of these pastors--or even their theology--is there not a middle ground between blind allegiance and damning judgment?
What I mean to suggest is: instead of attempting to discard these pastors as heretics, could you not consider them brothers in the faith, and offer compassionate, critical feedback which could sharpen their thinking and their ministry?
If you are truly concerned about their ministry, I believe it is your Biblical mandate to do so.
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 03:40:26 PM |
Age 17, IN |
I really don't understand how the authors of these articles can be so vehemently opposing the ministries of these pastors. I think that they (the authors of the articles on this sight) need to realize that writing a persuasive article (one that persuades at all costs--including distortion of the truth) is not appropriate. There are people reading this article that are weak in their faith. If a Christian leader tells them a one-sided story like this one, then they will likely believe every word of it literally.
Perhaps you do not agree with the methods of those who work with XXXchurch. If you don't agree, state why you do not agree and move on. You are throwing partial information at your readers in the same way the cults select portions of scripture and twist its meaning.
From one Christian to another, "You need to watch yourself and your attitude toward other Christians in private but especially in the public eye."
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 03:32:50 PM |
Age 17, IN |
Are you kidding me?
One point you missed: XXXchurch provides software that keeps people accountable for pornographic materials. Did you not know this, or did you "conveniently" leave it out?
You are blind to the work God is doing through these men and their ministry.
If I may remind you, when Christ came, he didn't look anything like what the religious leaders of the day believed the Messiah would look like. Not only did he look different...he acted differently. He broke their laws! The rules that the Pharisees believed to be the laws of the one true God were broken by the Son of God!
Do you not think that it is possible that Christ is using this ministry (and that of Rob Bell--who appears to be HATED by yourself and your counterparts? Are you too blind-sighted by how YOU view ministry to see that there is a world out there who is lost and dying that cares more about a Savior that loves them and died for them than a set of rules derrived by scholars rather than the text studied by the scholars? Are you really that self-consumed to believe that there is no possible way that the blunt approach taken by these individuals is not only effective but necessary?
Are you stinking kidding me?
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Re: Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 03:32:32 PM |
Age 51, MT |
I think the whole jist of the article is if the emergent church embraces something, look out!!!!!!
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 02:45:29 PM |
Age 38, PA |
Although I don't usually agree with Mr. Silva, I recommend him to others to read because he is usually (but not with Bell and some other people)thorough in his writings. With xxx.church Mr. Silva is way, way, wwaaayyy off base and has besmirched their reputations by making them out to be something other than what they are, proclaimers of redemption through Jesus death and resurrection to a community that is far from being interacted with (outside of viewing the DVD's, web pics and the like) by the church. Mr. Silva and Mrs. Schluetter (?) many times expect people to assent to their extra-biblical preferences (which we all have so we all have this sinful proclivity to get others to be like us instead of like Him)aloong with what the Bible teaches. Unfortunately, we all do this at differing levels so I am not throwing a bomb here. We all sin in this fashion whether a little or a lot.
Instead of throwing fiery darts at xxx.church (not our job anyway as far as I know [Gal 5 and Eph 6])we should be praying for them to maintain their purity while being in the world and trying to not be pulled in by the flesh, Satan or the world system (Eph 2). They are following in the footsteps of the Master by going to those who are the sick and outcast, dining with them and loving them.
Jim
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 02:18:46 PM |
Age 23, TX |
"We encourage healthy debating but will not accept feedback with personal attacks."
I find this disclaimer found at the opening of this page hilarious...so the only ones that can attack are those who are writing the actual articles, right? Ridiculous.
Rob Bell and the guys at xxxChurch.com are doing great things. If the American church wasn't so flippin* scared of actually being real with people and not trying to "just make it to heaven--Lord, come soon" we might actually be able to reverse the marginalization of the christian church.
I'm almost at the point where identifying myself with "Christians" is become useless. The original use of the word was by a people-group who were making fun or verbally attacking those who followed the teachings of Jesus (a more modern example would be the "N-word" in referrence to our African/African-American brothers and sisters). Somewhere along the lines someone decided it was better to join them than to fight them and began to accept the term as a new label for those who followed Jesus. I'm a disciple of Jesus, not a "christian". That word means nothing anymore. It basically just means NOT A MUSLIM. Or it means bible thumping, hard nosed, arrogant religious people who have figured out how to use the computer or have a radio show or a tv show. Unbelievable some of the things that come out of you people's mouths.
Returning to the topic at hand, Rob Bell and the guys at xxxchurch are actively engaging the culture and not expecting the "fish to jump into the boat" like those who expect just having more church services will mean changing their community. We have got to go where the people, the fish, are. We have got to use different bait if necessary, and that is all I see these MEN OF GOD doing. Thank God that they are reaching a target audience that I would have no idea how to reach. Thank God that through there efforts men all over the country are being delivered from the hooks of pornography and the secrecy surrounding it.
Finally, remember that the great reformist, Martin Luther, was considered a heritic by his contemporaries too.
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 12:16:46 PM |
Age 35, MD |
Ken, this article contains as much poor reasoning and as many faulty conclusions as your last attack on Rob Bell. Maybe you can notice by reading the feedback here that we are looking for thoughtful research, and logical support of a thesis. Instead we get this from you: "Willowbrooks Bill Hybels" (is he related to the Hybels who pastors Willow Creek?) has an opinion on church and porn, but we should discount that, because he has some undefined connection with Robert Schuller... Craig and Mike have an anti-porn ministry, but that can't be valid because Rob Bell helped make it happen. Rob Bell can't be trusted because he supported Craig and Mike... who are dealing with a topic Bill Hybels addressed, but he can't be trusted because of Robert Schuller... And around your circular reasoning goes. Maybe even more disturbing is your idea that "we might just boldly preach the true Word of our Lord and then rely on God the Holy Spirit to take care of the temples He actually resides in." as if the true Word of our Lord does not have anything to say about the issue of porn.
We expect better from you, and hope to see it any week now. Even if your motives are pure, you are responsible for your methods as well, which are lately pathetic!
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 10:47:49 AM |
Age 42, TX |
Mr. Silva,
Because I have not viewed the film "Missionary Positions" I cannot address it's strengths or weaknesses. Porn is a huge problem for males in this society. As a husband, father and pastor I have witnessed its affect on countless men.
Porn is sin and XXX Church is dealing with sin. They actively minister to individuals in the porn industry and help thousands of men maintain their vows of purity thru' online and printed resources.
I must admit that when I heard them popularize "Jesus loves porn stars", I was taken off balance.
The truth of the gospel and the power of the One who raised Jesus from the grave is each person's only hope. XXX Church is ministering, to my knowledge, from that power and is declaring the truth of the Word and the way of salvation, Jesus Christ.
They will likely never be invited to my church, but that does not diminish the eternal work which the Spirit of God is accomplishing thru' them.
I welcome your reply.
Brad in Dallas
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 10:32:30 AM |
Age 28, TX |
Honestly, I'm not really sure what I think about Porn Sunday. I do agree, though, that this is a little discussed topic that is in fact destroying pastors and laymen alike.
I saw my first porn flick at the age of about seven, at the next door neighbor's house. I know a little boy who started looking at porn about the same age, only because of his father. These aren't Christian families, mind you, but I know others who are.
The former pastor of my uncle's church asked my uncle to fix his office computer. It had lots of porn on it, including child porn. My uncle cleared it and talked to the pastor about it. The pastor 'repented' but my uncle caught him on several more occasions looking at porn. Not long after that a little girl was raped, murdered, decapitated, and stuffed in a concrete drain pipe. All evidence points to the pastor.
I could tell more stories, but the fact is that porn is a big problem in both the secular and Christian world. I admit, some are not REALLY born again Christians, but then some are. Would breaking the silence, accountability such as the XXX church program that emails a friend if you look at questionable websites, and other tactics work? I don't know, but I hope it does!
Sarah in TX
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 10:25:02 AM |
Age 36, MI |
We should keep the subject of pornography under wraps, because someone might actually hold me accountable.
XXX.church.com and its message of open accountability may have saved my marriage. This issue was periodically derailing my life and destroying me, even though I fought it with all my heart. Now that I have open accountablity through this site, I am starting to be free again. Thank God for the comfort of forgiveness, and the accountability of fellowship. Before things like 'porn sunday' I couldn't talk about this issue at all. I am more free today than I was before the advent of the internet. Yes, it is out of the ordinary.
The parallels with Jesus eating at the pharisee's home are astounding. The host really looked down on the woman. He really thought of her as unclean. Not any different than the way muslims teach their children about Jews today. If we hide from this issue and the industry that supports it, we will be eaten from the inside out. How many pastors, fathers, and young men need to be destroyed before xxx.church is acceptable?
I sense some personal animosity toward Mr. Bell. I listen to multiple teachers, including Rob Bell, and am a teacher myself. He is very solid and delivers the big picture of the Bible better than anyone I have ever heard. He is not an infallible pope speaking ex cathedra, but who is? Since reading this and other criticisms of this man, I have increased my attention and hardened my criticism. I disagree with some of his teaching, but not very much. There is much more heartache within the congregation I attend. Every issue from baptismal regeneration to communion methods to eternal security is more out of whack among our deacons, elders and pastors than the teaching pastor at Mars Hill. There are a thousand more problems with my Roman Catholic in-laws than with 'porn sunday'.
It is OK to criticise. It is good to scrutinize. It is not good to 'demonize'. For all who criticise 'porn sunday' or Rob Bell, "...pray for your enemies, and do good to those who persecute you," because "faith without deeds is dead."
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Praise God for XXXchurch
| Posted On: 11/14/06 10:07:29 AM |
Age 29, NE |
I'm sorry that you can't get behind porn Sunday, but I know as a youth pastor and a young male muself that pornography is now becoming the norm for Christians and nonChristians alike. Men need to see the dangers of the things that they are viewing. People need to realize that it's not just a problem the world has, it is a problem Christendom needs to expose and deal with. That's what XXXchurch is doing. That's what the emphasis of porn Sunday is. Bringing our sin into the light so that we can confess it, and be cleansed and have fellowship with one another. (1 John 1:5-7)
Obviously something like porn Sunday should not be a family affair, but it needs to be addressed at church. What would you suggest we do? Ignore it. Although every single guy in my youth group struggles with it in one form or another, pretend that it doesn't exist and don't touch on the subject so people won't be offended or convicted? I'm really confused as to what your stance is, and what you're condemning.
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 10:07:19 AM |
Age 29, TX |
I am curious...with all of your sarcasm aside, how do you really feel about xxxchurch.com? Have you ever known someone who has struggled with an addiction to pornography? I have counseled many students and young men on the issue at hand. Most of them feel that the church does a poor job of understanding what really goes on in that dark, sinful world. I am not one to condone the sin of sexual immorality by any means, but who are you to call this message sinful? Have you watched the documentary, or are you scared that you might actually see how rampant this epidemic really is? I don't claim to have all the answers on the area of pornography and sexual immorality, but if this ministry helps deliver people from darkness to the light and point them to Jesus, I say bring it on. Jesus was very clear in His message. He said you are either for me or against me. These people are for Him. Since that is the case in point, get off of your Rob Bell hate horse and see that these people are pointing people to Jesus Christ. Are you?
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 09:47:59 AM |
Age 46, AR |
Ken
I am perplexed as to the point of your criticism. I would assume you regard pornography as a real harm to both our culture, and to people in the church. It would also appear that Mars Hill Bible Church, and the leaders of the XXXchurch, regard pornography as a real harm -- So much so that several ministers have given themselves to ministering at the very gates of hell. (I read an essay on the XXXchurch in Christianity Today Online, in which one of its leaders, along with his wife, sought to go to porn conventions and hand out gospel literature. Beyond that, they seek to minister to Christians caught in the web of pornography.)
I suspect you feel that a Sunday morning is not the place for a discussion of porn (and, depending on the content, it may not be.) But clearly, this is a matter that needs to be talked about, in such a way that those who are tempted, or trapped, know of the liberating message of Christ, and the possibility of freedom from unholy addictions.
However, your essay left me with a sense that you would condemn this ministry, or efforts to hold a light to the dark den of porn, without giving me sufficient reasons to join you in your critique.
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 09:41:14 AM |
Age 35, MO |
Any Pastor in America would state that right now a portion of their congregation is having a problem with being addicted to porn. Any Pastor that denies this is not connected with the flock. I pastor a small church plant that is very intimate and relational. The word of God is preached and still there are people that come that are dealing with the power of addiction to porn. Some of these are new believers and others are not. Let us not think that this addiction is reserved for the new believer. There are men and women that have been in church for years that still struggle in this area. Pastors and leaders struggle with Porn. Every year many pastors fall to cravings of the flesh and other lustful desires. It is no wonder that the church body also suffers the same. The "true word of God" is powerful and authoritative and has the power to transform but there is still a core that is completely rotten. At the core of a pornography addiction is shame and guilt. The "dirty little secret" is covered up and not talked about at all. The grip of addiction continues on an on. Mr. Silva you are quoted saying
"Or we might just boldly preach the true Word of our Lord and then rely on God the Holy Spirit to take care of the temples He actually resides in."
Jesus spoke the word of God and still people chose not to follow. Pastors today speak the "true word of God" and stil they fail. Earthly desires still took control over people with which Jesus came in contact. Jesus did another thing! He walked with people in deep relationship. He did not preach and run. The word of God was taught through deep descipleship and intimate relationship. Jesus was not afraid to talk about the issues that were destroying the world in the first century. He went to the heart of many destructive issues.
Mr. Silva I am not in wholehearted disagreement with your article but I hope that you are not advocating that we as pastors, teachers or preachers should never talk about things like pornography on a Sunday morning or any other special event. I wonder how many of those 13,000 people that came on "Porn Sunday" left equipped to talk openly about a problem that most don't have the courage to discuss? Maybe there were fathers and mothers there that saw and heard the importance of talking to their children, insrtucting them in the way of the Lord as we are commanded to do. Perhaps there were men and women that felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit and decided to seek help and intervention for a lifestyle that is leading to death. I wonder how many pastors, teachers, ministers, leaders and lay leaders heard the word of God that one Sunday and were moved into repentance for the hidden life that they are living? I bet God moved that day more than we give Him credit.
Respectfully,
Shawn Spiess
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 09:30:36 AM |
Age 50, TN |
Interesting topic...the number of readers proves this to be so. Also interesting article in that the author is against what Mars Hill church did, but at least as far as I could find he didn't really explain why. Therefore, it seems that he didn't add much to the discussion besides information and and condemnation.
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 09:21:56 AM |
Age 54, PA |
I guess I don't understand what is going on in this article. I am thankful a church is willing to so forcefully address such a devastating scourge in our culture. Porn is more pervasive than we want to think, and it harms the church as much as those outside its doors. I have not seen the film referred to in this article, so I don't know what the author's objection is to what Mars Hill Bible did or is doing. Does he object to the title "Porn Sunday?" Perhaps that is a bit over the edge, but if it draws an audience to listen to an explanation of this evil, we should be cheering not jeering. God help us to trust Him to use us in our various methods of reaching into our communities to impact our culture for good instead of attacking one another because we don't agree on tactics. I see nothing in this article to justify the implication that Rob Bell is doing something to dishonor the name of Christ. Sorry.
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 08:52:28 AM |
Age 47, GA |
Shocking, but not surprising. Satan holds a powerful weapon in pornography, and cripples untold numbers of otherwise effective Christians by it. It's such a shame Pastors are so enthralled by the possibility of increasing their numbers that they will lead their congregations to the very brink of destruction in that endeavor.
Up next? The "Meth"iah's soon return"
An in-depth analysis of methamphetamine and spirituality. Strung out on crank, reports of meth-heads seeing angels prompts a small town preacher to travel the US from megachurch to megachurch mixing and cooking meth for the curious congregations.
Samples are passed out and consumed right then and there.
Asked about the possible benefit that might come from his distribution of one of the most addictive and destructive chemical cocktails available, the preacher replies "Well, it takes one to know one."
Oh, OK then.
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Re: Rob Bells Porn Sunday Mission
| Posted On: 11/14/06 08:48:06 AM |
Age 38, IL |
I find it interesting that Ken thinks we should let the Holy Spirit deal with people and their secret sin of pornography addiction, but he takes it upon himself to judge Rob Bell, take his comments out of context, and misrepresent Mars Hill Bible Church.
I am not a member or attender of Mars Hill, nor am I under the "spell" of Rob Bell, but I CAN spot when someone is setting up a straw man and blowing it over the sake of impressing his constituency, I mean congregation.
I wonder of the people under the "spell" of Ken Silva and "World View Weekend" struggle with problems like pornography addiction? I wonder if they are helped or shamed by Ken's apparent decision not to publically deal with the situation.
To be fair, I wouldn't use the kind of language and titles that are quoted. "Porn Sunday" doesn't sound like something geared to a Christian witness. At the same time, the titles and the content are not the same. All I know from Ken's article was that the publicity around these events is a bit off color, if you will (Or at the very least something Ken Silva thinks is inappropriate).
Was Jesus lifted up, not in the title, but in the event? Is God delivering people from porn addiction through XXXchurch? What is the fruit (and I don't consider the number of attendees fruit)?
To address the issue raised by Ken in a way that has integrity and doesn't sound like a hatchet job on a brother's ministry, I think Ken should tackle some substantive questions. If Rob Bell is a problem, lets go with some actual evidence, not just your dislike for the way he turns a phrase.
My two cents,
mdd
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