SOAKING: PART TWO

Soaking

Part Two

To show just how widespread this "soaking" phenomenon is becoming, here below is an excerpt from John Arnott, pastor of the Airport Vineyard in Toronto where the laughing revival started in the 1990's. During this "Toronto Blessing" movement, people roared and did many strange animalistic things under the circus leaders of this movement who had no Scripture to justify such weird and unusual, unnatural manifestations.

Arnott:

"Let's get back to supernatural church" by John Arnott

o  "...we hear the term, 'church without walls' but what does this mean? While it can mean sending teams from a local church outside the church's walls to minister in homes and in the marketplace, I believe it is much more than that. If we are going to reach this world for Jesus, we need a completely new model of doing church ...

o  "I believe the vision God gave us here in Toronto for Soaking Prayer Centers all over the world is a great response to the Great Commission. In just over one year, we have had over 4,000 people order our 'Soaking Kit' and begin a small group of 'called out ones' in their homes....

o  "Why the interest? Because it is a quick, simple way to get involved into the supernatural ministry of Jesus and start helping people receive healing, deliverance and freedom, to come into the joy of the Lord and be filled with the Spirit. The Soaking Kit includes all the basic information you need to start your own 'soaking center' in your home or business."

Much could be said about these words of Mr. Arnott. Notice these words from Arnott concerning "soaking": "Because it is a quick, simple way to get involved into the supernatural ministry of Jesus and start helping people receive healing, deliverance and freedom, to come into the joy of the Lord and be filled with the Spirit." Sound smooth? Sound biblical? Since when is walking with Christ and doing ministry "quick"? Is there a "quick, simple way to get involved into the supernatural ministry"? Is "soaking" a "supernatural ministry" of the Holy Spirit or "another spirit"? (2 Cor. 11:4) This is the false premise for this whole "soaking" movement - a "quick, simple way" to get around a true walk with God which requires Jesus increasing and we decreasing - the crucifixion of the fleshly nature with fastings, prayer, repentance and obedience (2 Chronicles 7:14).

In Psalms 51 we see a divine sequence: first purging then filling, and then ministry. Real ministry is not a "quick" fix, but rather a relationally-based preparation that requires that the believer humble himself under the mighty hand of God for purging and cleansing that he might be "a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." 2 Timothy 2:19-21

Tell-Tale Fruit

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Galatians 5:22-23

From personal experience in this 1990's "blessing" movement (and study of it); this writer has concluded that there was very little fruit of the Holy Spirit produced in those supposed "revivals". The fruit of the supposed "revivals" of the 1990's was not "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness..." If such is true, do we conclude that it was a blessing or a curse? When God really moves (revival), there will be deep repentance, total trust, praise, Holy Ghost filling, water baptism, doctrinal purity, and a deep hunger for the Word! Read Acts.

"God is love" and those who truly know Him serve Him according to His Word which includes lifting up others above self (rather than self-seeking). See 1 John.

Where is the love? Are these revivals producing true Christian, Christ-like love, where people lay down their lives for their LORD and the brethren? This "soaking" phenomenon is to be weighed no different than when we are in our local gatherings and we sing, clap, dance and shout to the LORD in praise and yet never reach out with Christian love to commune with and bless the brethren of the LORD. Such deficiency of Christ-like love clearly reveals an empty outward religious exercise void of the true substance of worship. In the 1990's and today, the same people who lay on the floor for hours "soaking" seem to get up without exhibiting greater fruit or evidence of the Holy Ghost. Where is the love that is always characterized by loving one's neighbor? No, instead it seems to be just another selfish experience where people come to get blessed instead of being one, just like the rich woman who lives to be pampered by others giving her massages, pedicures and facials. Those involved in these fad modern church and self-seeking "revivals" still seem to lack the love, real joy, and peace always consistent with the work of the Spirit of God. Such fruit will only come to those who sincerely worship from the depths of their hearts and are doers of the Word and not those who are sitting around doing little or nothing and waiting to be further pampered and fattened by "soaking".  

(continued….)

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Re: Re: Soaking: Part Two Posted On: 09/14/06 08:42:51 AM Age 30, VA Using rhetorical questions, saying "is this orderly?", or "is this discipleship?" etc based upon appearances is simply manipulation of the facts, which you or the author never try to establish. It would be like having someone walk into a scene from a drama like Heaven's Gates and Hell's Flames and condemning it as, "Is this really what we see in the bible as having Church?" and saying it's wrong based upon opening the foyer door during a scene. You have to look at what was and is going on, in context, check out the teachings compared to the Bible, and look at the results (the fruits). Appearances deceive, and even altar calls produce false-converts regularly. We have to establish the Truth, what exactly they're teaching/doing and how it is unbiblical or that we're told to avoid these types of things in the Bible, in order to condemn something or establish it as a false/heretical teaching/movement. Unfortunately, sofar, neither the article nor the "it's of the devil type of" feedback have offered enough information. Re: Re: Manefestations? Get back to the Standard. Posted On: 09/13/06 09:11:44 AM Age 22, FL The Scriptures say that we'll know them by their fruits. You misquoted/misinterpreted my words about snake handlers. Please re-read my post. I understand the meaning of that passage, which is not in the oldest of the manuscripts, BTW. Still, you give no Scriptural information as to why this "soaking" thing is in error or even what it is. To hide behind "spiritual discernment" without Biblical backing is just another example of gnosticism(claiming a "hidden" knowledge). If you can't defend your beliefs from the Word, you should spend more time in It and less time reading/listening to others teaching about It. Where's this "senses trained to discern good and evil" in the Bible? Once matured in the faith, able to give an account for the Hope within us, not swayed by every wind of doctrine, we should be able to discern the truth and address it from the Word. That's still my request. Re: Manefestations? Get back to the Standard. Posted On: 09/12/06 02:29:30 PM Age 57, VA I will answer you this last time. I don't even know why I bother,since you are so smart. You seem to be too smart. I mean you want to use your head, your intelligence, to be able to "discern the facts." Unfortunately many things are "spiritually discerned." If you were in the midst of these so-called signs and wonders, it would be up to you to spiritually discern them. You cannot go by what you see or even the facts. We don't walk by what we see but by the word of God. When we mature and we then have our "senses trained to discern good and evil." Obviously that has not happened to you, since you would embrace snake handlers. You have to be mature to understand that in Mark 16 the writer was not referring to snake handlers. As in the case of Paul, who was bitten by a snake, but shook it off and believed God that no deadly thing would harm him, he did not tempt God in so doing. Snake handlers are tempting God. Your "spiritual discerner" is broken, whether you can believe that or not. At age 22 that is really a marvel, right? I know I have opened up another bag or worms for you to tangle with. Tangle all you want. Some times it is just better to let things rest. So that I will do. Re: Re: Re: Re: Soaking: Part Two Posted On: 09/12/06 12:25:45 PM Age 22, FL Nope, I haven't posted on part 3, BTW. The feedback already there says it all. I had hoped that someone would reply with facts and Scriptures to my questions/points about this article, by now, instead of saying look at the glowing article on webpage X or Y. Re: Re: Re: Re: Soaking: Part Two Posted On: 09/12/06 12:21:57 PM Age 22, FL We're not supposed to give our opinions? I'm sorry, I could have sworn that it says We want your feedback. I thought we were here to give feedback, make points, and counter points. Not personally attack. Sorry if points and information, or noting a lack thereof, is a part of your definition of nagging or trying to make someone look foolish. Again that's your opinion, not backed up by fact. I don't have a problem with opinions, but to accuse some group as being "winds of doctrine" without even establishing the group's doctrine/teachings is in error, Biblically, and is a total offense to those caught up in this. It seems that we're both talking about a movement we know little/nothing of. I'm trying to find out the truth, and not just seem to be a "Bible thumping fundamentalist," unable to back my words Scripturally, or even logically or in debate, in order TO HELP THOSE caught up in this, if it's truly in error. I want to reach these people when I encounter them. That's why I keep asking....to reach the lost and the deceived. I'm sorry that it matters so much where I come from or how I feel about such and such or that I don't post, rather than helping me understand the truth, from the Scriptures. Manefestations? Get back to the Standard. Posted On: 09/12/06 08:30:17 AM Age 22, FL Sorry, my intention was not to offend. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't judge by manefestations, if there are some or not, you have to judge them by their fruits. You need to read some accounts of historical revivals. Manefestations, being right or wrong, fruit or not, are a fact and a recorded part of many, if not most, historical revivals. Obviously, people get into the flesh or the devil tries to make trouble when the Gospel is preached to sinners. That's not how to determine whether or not a revival is to be considered "real" is it, whether or not we think the periphrial manefestations are real or not? If so, most, if not all of the revivals in our nation's history were false revivals...people acting drunk, shaking uncontrollably, falling and lying in embarassing positions, wardrobe malfunctions....all a part of the Cane Ridge revival. Back on topic. I'm not calling this soaking thing, which I'm looking for information about, a revival or genuine. Still, I want someone to show me how this current "movement" as todd called it is teaching contrary to Scripture without changing the subject. Allusions, opinions, and inuendo may point to but in and of themselves are not Truth. Let's get back to the Standard to determine if something is of God or not. There will always be bugs buzzing around the Light. We can't miss the Message because there's a few interruptions/wackos in the congregation. I've never read of a perfect revival or outreach, yet. Personally, I don't care if you dance around with poisonous snakes, following MK 16, if God tells you to do it, but you better be showing fruit, winning souls and making disciples for the Lord, or you're a false teacher and most would consider you crazy. Re: Re: Re: Soaking: Part Two Posted On: 09/11/06 06:58:31 PM Age 57, VA You are just full of yourself! You think you are making those that disagree with you look foolish, as if you know more and are correct. What good are you doing by being so persistant? And on top of that, what makes "those occurances" you described "GoooooDDD!!!!!" just because they happened? Do you believe in false signs and wonders? Would you please make a list of those that occur within the "accepted known body of Christ." By that I mean the known Body excluding, John of God, snake handlers, and the likes. Or do you believe most of the signs and wonders taking place are for real? It seems to be a common occurance for Todd to have at least one person who wants to nag him like a woman and hound his trail till the cows come home. And you are it!! I bet you have already responded to his 3rd article on Soaking with your "prove it to me" nagging! (by the way I am a woman but men can nag too) Re: Observations Posted On: 09/11/06 04:01:51 PM Age 41, TN If you're looking for facts, or research, I don't think you'll find it in this author's article or in his feedback replies. Actually the only "meat" in this particular article that resembles research, if you want to call it that, is plagarized from http://www.crossroad.to/Q&A/church/postmodern/soaking.htm and other websites, since, as he stated, he's busy and doesn't have time to research (check the feedback on part 1). Even when the information from that website, it must be noted that half of that article condemns the "laughing" revivals, and therefore this soaking thing is guilt by association, even though this soaking teaching/movement is never established as teaching Biblical error. Also notice all the incomplete sentences and context issues with the quotes on that webpage. Re: Re: Soaking: Part Two Posted On: 09/11/06 12:08:32 PM Age 22, FL If you check Christian history, and the revivals of the past 200 years, you'll see several examples of similar responses when the Gospel is preached. Strange it is, but it is a FACT of the revivals of our nation's history. In fact, at Cane Ridge, if you read the accounts, they chopped off the trees at about shoulder height to make rows of logs for people to sit upon, leaving the tall stumps in place so that the people would have something to hold on to to keep from falling when they were touched and convicted when the Gospel was preached. Falling out and wailing for hours were common occurances/staples of the revivals of our nation before WWII. Still, what specifically, in context with full quotes and references, is Biblically wrong with this "soaking" thing that this one church is doing? I've never seen this soaking stuff myself and it seems we're taking liberties with quotes and observations. Re: Re: Babysitting your Articles Posted On: 09/11/06 11:43:18 AM Age 22, FL Becky, those manefestations from probably over 10 years ago, quoted in the article, were one of the reasons Vineyard kicked out the toronto church, but mainly for failure to submit to leadership/correction. Still, and back to this soaking thing, besides taking quotes out of context, repeatedly using ... and ... and cuting off beginnings or ends of sentences, where's the facts showing this "movement" running contrary to Scripture? Are we going to show what they say in these meetings, or just quote the juicy partial sentences? We're not running a popularity/opinion contest, we should be establishing the truth.